10/26/1998 - 2416 (See Related VNN Stories)
"Do It Till You Are Blue in the Face"
Germany (VNN) - Conversation with Harikesa Das
"What I really wanted to tell her is: "Why don't you two you guys go off for a vacation and do it till you are blue in the face and gradually get over this. But I couldn't say that, what I said
was: "well, know, you got to follow principles, you know, you got to be strict, and that
and the other thing". I hated myself for it." - Excerpt from the following unedited and complete conversation with Madhava Puri on October 10, 1998
(texts in italic and headlines inside the conversation are inserted by the editor) [not VNN editor]
What it is is that you see the physical bodies, nowadays
You see there are energies and there is also the body. Within the body, the physical body, it works by, you know, the chemical combinations and everything. But
There is the etheric body, which is where the chakras are and everything, and that's what's connecting between people, and with the universe, and
like that. That's where the emotions lie, that's where past life experiences lie, that's where the connection to the universal energies lie and everything. Not subtle. Subtle body is the mind, intelligence and false ego - that's even something else. Etheric body, yeah. And the etheric body is where everything really happens. And in the etheric body almost everybody in the world is super-damaged. Especially devotees. And if you can rebuild that etheric body and purify it, and take away all the pain and anxiety and fears and give real strength, then the person transforms into a totally wonderful kind of a person, which is really what the world needs nowadays.
No, no. Cough has nothing to do with the etheric body. What it is is that You see the gross body is too.., how to say, too.., it's not of the right energy. The gross bodies nowadays are not of the right energy to handle the energy of the etheric body, because everything is really happening in the etheric body. But the etheric body is far far more powerful, especially in some people. For me, especially right now, that energy is far far far more powerful than my gross body, and that's been the problem all along. All the feelings, all the energy, all the desires, the intellect, the plans, the fear for the world, or for the movement, or for whatever, was so much more powerful than my body could handle, especially even ecstatic feelings. Whenever there was an ecstatic feeling the body would completely collapse, completely, because it couldn't handle the feelings, because my body was not in a right situation to handle all that kind of a thing. And so the body had to transform in order to catch up to the etheric body. And the whole world is in the same situation. The energy is transforming very rapidly, the energy is transforming very rapidly, but the bodies are not situated properly. The whole material world is not situated properly to catch up to the energies. So therefore there is sickness in the bodes, sickness in the minds, sickness in the hearts, so we have to transform the bodies to catch up to what's going on on the etheric platform, because the demigods, they all work on the etheric platform.
You want to ask me the questions? Why don't you just tell me all the questions? Yeah
Yeah, that's good because we are also tape-recording here, so you can just ask me all the questions, and then I'll repeat them now because they are only tape-recording what I say here in the room. So you just tell me the questions and I'll repeat them right after you tell me, Ok? Or you can do it at any time you want, it's no problem. No just tell me all the questions and I'll just repeat them so that on our tape-recorders here we have them. q
- Devotees try to understand what had happened to me since early June? - Ok.
- Somebody said I had severe mental and physical breakdown. Was it so? What do I think was the cause of the breakdown? How do I feel now?
- Why did I start taking vibhuti in the first place?
- Then after the collapse devotees perceived a sudden and radical change in the way I perceived ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada. Have my views actually changed that drastically? And what were the most prominent differences between my present views and the ones I've presented when I was in ISKCON during my years?
Yes sure, what else? They are little boring, but what else?
- Many devotees think that the EC members tried their best within the party line framework to deal with me properly. At the same time devotees sympathize with my feelings of being mistreated. In what way do I feel I was mistreated by the EC members? Has the way they dealt with me affected my view of ISKCON? In what way?
Just not a question.
- They want to know who to blame for the failures of ISKCON, for the failures of themselves, for the failures of the leaders, for the failures of Srila Prabhupada, for the failures of myself? If while active in ISKCON did make some mistakes, could I be blamed for some of the ISKCON's failures? How do I feel about that?
- Do I recognize the problem of the fact that I present things very heavily because I get totally into it and I'm not a diplomat, and a politician, and
? Yeah, go ahead. Next. Do I want to do something about this?
- I said that buildings, properties and bank accounts are all that ISKCON cares about and they don't care about the people anymore and I want to do something to transform them. What do I consider the best way to help another person?
- I said guru should be a guide, what do I mean by that and what's the difference between present gurus in ISKCON? When one understands what a spiritual master is then one can understand how one can be a spiritual master or whatever it is, and then one can understand how I feel and then one's disciple can understand what to do.
- How was the principle of no illicit sex causing the destruction of thousands of people in ISKCON?
- What do I consider is the proper way in which sex can be used to or engaged in order to help one become happy and healthy in spiritual life?
- Something about initiation promises?
- Something about contraceptives which I have no idea about so that's
You can have to talk to some experts. Jayapataka Maharaja says he has a disciple who knows about these things, I'm not an expert in these things
Yeah, I mean everybody wants to know, but I've no idea about these things, I'm a wrong person to ask. (laughing). They want to know about contraceptives - I have no idea about these things
Obeisances to Guru-Sakti.
Yeah, what happened was like this. For many many years I was very very discouraged with ISKCON. For example when Prabhupad left the planet and he just appointed these 11 gurus and he gave absolutely zero instructions what should be done, I was very worried. Because how do you become a guru when you are in your twenties or early thirties, when you don't even know what to do, and the only example there is is Srila Prabhupad. So if one is giving instructions what to do it's easier, but if there are no instructions one just follows previous examples. So I was very worried about this because how do you follow the example of Srila Prabhupad when you are in your early twenties and you don't know very much.
So then what happened was, at January of 1978 I was in Bombay for 1 week and I spent that whole time with Pradyumna, because we were both very close. Prabhupad said there were 3 people who are very very similar - Pradyumna, Syamasundara and myself, so naturally, at least Pradyumna and myself were a kind of close. We talked about what to do with this guru question and we decided that in order to not disturb god-brothers and in order to not take positions, which are artificial, one should start off with a very very simple little seat. Like let's say 1 inch off the ground, or wooden seat or something like this so there is a difference but not much of a difference. And if there are any pictures they should be tiny tiny little pictures. So we thought very comfortable with this and we thought this was very good.
So I went to the Mayapur meeting and when they asked what should we do I said "Well I've talked with Pradyumna and we came up with this very nice idea that would probably solve the situation". Everybody immediately rejected it. Then they were talking what to do, what to do, then Guru-kripa said we should go to Sridhar Maharaja, because that's what Prabhupad said. And then Guru-kripa said "Isn't that right, Tamal?" And then Tamal Krishna Maharaj didn't say anything, but he just shook his head and said "Yeah". And then I was freaked out immediately because I knew what this would mean, because I knew this would be the end. So then they had a vote. Jayatirtha said "Ok, everybody in favor?" so people raised their hands. I tried to speak against it, but nobody listened. Then Jayatirtha said: "It was unanimous". I said "It's not unanimous, take the "no" votes". And he said: "why should I do that?" I said: "Because I wanna go down in history as being the only person against this insane resolution." So then he said "Ok go down in history. All those against?", then I raised my hand. Then they went to Sridhar Maharaj and Sridhar Maharaj said: "Oh when you are a guru it's like being married. Right? You have your wife and wife means home or children, family. You have to have your own home, your own place, right? And guru, you know, you should have vyasasana which is just a little bit below Srila Prabhupad's vyasasana", and so many things. And he destroyed everything by saying that.
Then there was very little hope after that. So then the whole thing started. Everybody wanted to do it this way, that way, the other way. After about two months of the way they were doing it with guru-puja simultaneous to set the other things, I changed the whole thing. I said: "I'm sick of this, it's disgusting" and I stopped it. And gradually gradually gradually I was reducing the whole thing with this vyasasanas and with crawler garlands and with aratics and with puja and this bla bla bla. I couldn't stand any of this stuff within. Washing feet was the worst one of all, that was totally disgusting. So I wanted nothing to do with any of these things, but I had to something because disciples thought I was crazy to not do. So during that time they were doing horrible horrible things. You know they were writing papers on the basis of, Satsvarupa Maharaj was writing papers on the basis of what Sridhar Maharaj wrote, and all the GBCs thought it was great. And I was totally fried with it. Actually me and Adi-kesava jointed forces at that time, and we were trying to stop this within the GBC. Because I'm a very loyal kind of a company man. You know, what's his name - Saphtane Davis gave me a paper - I gave it to Saunaka Risi - about different kinds of people and how they relate with others. So I have many different qualities, but one of the strongest ones is that I'm a company man. Like when I do things within a company or society or something I'm very loyal to it, because that's just one of my qualities, I'm a loyal person.
So although I hated what was going on within the GBC and all the GBC men know that I was a complete radical the whole time, but I didn't speak about it outside of the GBC. Because I thought that we have to do things within, we always have to do things within, because that's the way it works.
If you really want to make change, you have to do it within. Ok, so I did that, did that, did that. I was against so many things that were going on the whole time. But it didn't work. You know being against everything from within, it just doesn't work, because nobody cares. All they care about is the status quo, and to expand the power, and all this and that for themselves, and to get more opulence. Jayadvaita Maharaj told when we were in Korsnas having a meeting, he said the main problem is money and women. And actually that's the problem for the whole world. Not just money and women, that's a typical ISKCON way of saying it, it's money and the opposite sex. Every man wants a woman for enjoyment, every woman wants a man for security and enjoyment, and in order to do all this we need money. So the whole world runs on that. ISKCON is no different.
If you are a guru or whatever you are it all boils down to money and enjoyment with the opposite sex. So I'm watching this going on, I'm seeing the way in which children have been dealt with. In the mid eighties when I saw the way that it was going on in Vrindavana and everything, I was so fried, you know. I said we got to change this fast, we got to do something fast. We got to get these kids out of these institutions where they've being abused and destroyed. So I was speaking with Sri Ram because he was the "big cheese" in the ministry of education. I was saying: "We have to do something fast. We have to get them out, we have to make a parental system where they go to people who love them and take care of them". But he wasn't interested in anything I said. Anything I would say he would reject immediately. And he was the main man in education. I would talk to Jagadisa Maharaja, at that time we were friends. But he was so basically bewildered all the time because he had no capacity to do anything. He is not that kind of a person, he's just a gentle kind of a brahminical person. So nothing was going on that way. And so I kind of a
more and more withdrew myself from everything.
And then I collapsed, because there was like zero way to get anything done because you couldn't work through the GBC, and everybody was trying to be a big big big shot. Bhagavan especially, the king of the world, right? But the guy himself, was just totally, as a person he was totally useless. He could hardly accomplish anything. He could simply do some talking, he didn't even know what was going on in his zone, he probably couldn't even use a calculator. I mean the guy was himself personally a totally worthless person. But the way he dealt with others was that he always dragged down everybody else by criticizing them and this and that, and other thing. And Bhavananda was a queen, and everybody knows what that means. And Ramesvar was a complete controller, although I liked Ramesvar very much. And I think he's very confident, but
he also was scared to death. He also felt like me, he also knew that this whole guru thing was a joke. But when he tried to do something about it, Bhagavan and I think Tamal and others forced him to continue doing it and that's why he freaked out, because he was in a position he knew he didn't want to be in. He was also very young. Anyway there are many many histories I can go on for hours, I know the full thing from top to bottom what really went on inside.
And you know knowing all these and never being able to tell it to anybody it's a complete fry.
And in 87 the whole thing just came to a huge crash. You know, I just couldn't take it anymore, after, after the guru thing. And then they had these meetings because others like Ravindra, whoever created it I don't know. They thought that the best way just change everything is to just, you know, make everybody a guru. So instead of having only a few unqualified persons now we have hundreds of unqualified persons. And where there is no leaders anymore, then they had this 50 men committee thing which was the biggest joke in the world. Like you need some kind of leadership, right, but after all this collapse what they did is that 50 men committee dragged down every leader. Now there is no leaders. And then what is there? There's nothing. And the whole movement was like dry.
Then there is all these new people on the GBC and they thought now we are gonna do it right. The old GBC stank, and they're all crazy, and now we're gonna do it right. And I'm just sitting there watching these guys, they're ten times more incompetent than the old GBC. And they are thinking they're doing it right, they're doing everything wrong. And they don't even care to hear about it, and then again and again it goes on and on, and I'm thinking it's just getting worse, not better. And at the same time I know what to do right, nobody listens to me, nobody cares. And so by Laxmi's grace and by the arrangements of some Russian devotees we managed to get a lot of money. And then I started spending it on the children to protect them from abuse, to give them education, to help the educators, because I want to help the brahmanas. Because the real society means you've got to help the brahmanas, the women, the children, the cows and the old men. This means brahminical culture. This means the actual thing. You've got to help people, you can't just exploit them all the time. So I thought we have to do this.
So then when I had some money all of a sudden everything changed. People who I would never even think of being friends with all of a sudden started becoming very friendly with me. Just like Badrinarayan, who used to just, always anything I said he would criticize or just change it up or turn it around. Ravindra Svarup who used to think of me as like one of the most horrible people on earth, I guess, I don't know what. But when I got money things changed. Ravindra never was influenced by money, he was actually quite good, but Badri he changed. When there was money he changed. And others they changed, you know. They started thinking of me: "Oh, maybe he's a good guy, right, because he has money". And then they started doing this and that, and the other thing, and people started being very friendly to me, and everything. And I'm thinking: "Ok." Internally this made me quite sick. Because I never used money to make anybody love me or I never used money to control anybody. I used to just give it away and I never even thought of whether they're using it right or not. I never asked for accounts or I never asked for anything, because it wasn't my money. I think this is money coming from God, so I use it in a service of God. You know, Krishna wants it, Ok fine. I never was attached like that, I never used it for myself personally, not one penny. So I used everything for others, and I never cared what they did it for. And then they were becoming more friendly and I'm thinking: "God, there's something intrinsically wrong with all this."
Anyway I was trying all these years to establish a social structure in ISKCON, because I saw here's a society based purely on communism. Purely communism, everything communism. Nobody has any economic independence, nobody can even take care of himself, if he gets sick there's no one to take care of him, you could die in a temple no one would give it damn. And no one cares about others.
It's like a, there's the temple president who's in charge of everything, and the GBC. Everybody thinks the GBC is in charge of everything, although they had zero power to accomplish anything, and zero understanding what to do. And everything is just centralized, centralized, centralized, and I'm thinking: "This is nuts." It has to be localized. Everybody has to be independent, take care of themselves. Everybody has to have their own economy, in communities or however they want to do it. People have to have their own money, their own source of income. They have to be personally responsible to the government for things that they're doing. It's can't always depend on others, and always be trying to avoid everything in this communistic system.
And that's why the children were so abused. The children were so abused because no one cared about the children because of this rule. If you have illicit sex that means you're fallen. But who can live in this world without having some sex enjoyment? The whole material world runs on this thing. And you take the most attractive principle in the whole material world, which is sex life, and then you completely negate it, totally. And at the same time you have people get married. Just like Hayagriva once said: "What's the use of getting married - it's like going to a feast and not eating anything". And Prabhupad said: "Yes, that's the whole idea." Now why in heaven's name would you go to a feast and not eat anything? Why in heaven's name would you get married to somebody? The reason you would get married is because you love the person. But not in ISKCON, in ISKCON two people are just put together. You marry her! Prabhupad did that in the beginning. You marry him, you marry her, you marry her, he did that once. It doesn't work, you see. You have to love each other. And if you love each other you're gonna be attracted to each other. If you love your wife, for instance, you gonna look at her as beautiful. And if you look at her as beautiful, and you love her, now how in heaven's name are you not gonna touch her? And if you touch her, how, if you are a normal healthy person, how in heaven's name are you not going to feel something? But in ISKCON everybody's trained to not feel, because if they feel then their desires will arise, and if they have desires, there's something wrong with them. Because you shouldn't have desires, you should be transcendental. You should be like a stone, with no feelings, then you won't feel sex desire, isn't it? Therefore everybody becomes an impersonalist. So they don't have to feel desires. And what - we have the movement of impersonalists, who have no feelings. And then they all have these superficial feelings of love. q
In what way do I feel I was mistreated by the EC members?..
You talked about the EC members, just like when they first came. Yeah, they were very very friendly and happy, and I was trying to help them by instructing them how they were so contaminated. And then at one point they were going on, I said: "Ok, look, I got to go". And then they said, then all of a sudden they came out with a real thing: "What do you think about Srila Prabhupad?" And then I've explained it in a nice way and then we came back. Right? And on the way back they came up with a real "real thing". Which is that "how can you think yourself so advanced if you love some woman?" That was their whole point. Badrinarayan, Abhiram, even Hari Sauri to a certain extend although Hari Sauri is quite a different person. Pushing me like anything. Practically drilling me into the ground. I said: "Do you think, that if you love a person that means you can't be a devotee, you can't be advanced?" I said: "What about Bhaktivinoda Thakur? How many children he had? You think he didn't love his wife? He loved her like anything! Srila Prabhupada had so many children. You know. And what about Kardama Muni and Devahuti?" And they said: "Oh, this and this and so many things,"- you can go on and on and on. But their real point was: I'm a sahajiya who can't have any love for God because I'm attached for some woman. Now, that's far out. You know on the heavenly planets every single demigod is attached to some woman. In the spiritual world - everybody is attached. Even in the Goloka Vrindavan - they are all attached to Srimati Radharani. Krsna is attached. Wherever you go in the Vaikuntha planets every single devotee there has a consort. But here in the material world, where it's the main principle - we can't have this thing any more. Why? No illicit sex. No sex outside of marriage. I say no sex outside of marriage. I mean I didn't even say that anymore, I didn't care about principles anymore. It's so crazy. Whatever you make a principle everybody goes insane. So they say: "No illicit sex" - Ok! What does that mean? You only have sex to produce children. But if you only have sex to produce children, that means you only having children to have sex. And that means you don't really care about the children. And that was proved - phalena pariciyate - you prove it by sending the children often to continents, other continents, where you don't even care about them. Where they've been put in the hands of unqualified people, because nobody cared about paying for the teachers, because the only way you're gonna get good people is to pay them. Because good people aren't interested in working for free or just working for some prasadam which was cooked by somebody who didn't understand anything about how to cook or how to care about others. And how you are just told that you can have a toothbrush if you want it. You are householder, right? Your child needs something, you have to go to the treasurer. "I need diapers for my baby". Now the treasurer says: "Well, why do you need diapers, why you just don't get a towel and wash it every day?' Or: "How many diapers you need?" - "Well, I need 13 diapers" - "Why you need 13 diapers, why you just don't get two and buy more tomorrow?" - "Then I have to come back to you and beg for diapers" - "No, no, that's ok, we don't have any money" And in this way a householder is totally degraded into a beggar. And everybody is degraded into begging some people who are totally unqualified, heartless, cold and cruel, and in this way everybody comes under their control. Just like Radhanath with Sakti. When I didn't have any money to have any vegetables or anything after they've decided, that I was totally in maya and that I'm a demon, they don't give me money anymore. Because that's the way you do it. When somebody does something you like, you give him money, when you doesn't like you don't give him money. Just like before. Devotees gave me so much funds in order to just buy what I needed, of cause I never bought what I needed, I always gave it away, but they gave me so much just in case it was like that. And then, when they decided there is something wrong with me all the money stopped. Just like they all say: "We consider ourselves your disciples but we are not gonna give you any money until you come under our control and do what we want and then we'll give you money again. Just like Sakti wouldn't give Radhanath any money, although Radhanath worked so hard to build up that Abentheuer place and other places. And he couldn't even live in the temple. They wouldn't even give him a room. They wouldn't even give him money to buy food, because they are controlling everybody with money. I think it's sick. Anyway this is going on.
So in January, after 20 years of the social structure to that movement which was based on real varnasrama principles, real economic principles, real proper principles where people can be solid and situated in themselves economically, socially, where they can have friends, where they can be familiar in the family, they can love their wives, they can love their children, they can feel emotions, because if you can't even feel love to your fellow man how you're gonna feel love for God? You think you are gonna love God and have no feelings for anyone else. You think you can be a stone and in the material world and have opened heart and love for God? If you have love for God you love all living entities. You love all His parts and parcels. You can't just love only this one or that one. "I only love God but I hate everybody else". And if you really love others it's not just a question of smiling at them and petting them on the back and embracing them and saying "Oh, how nice". It's a question of commitment to these people, commitment to the children. To protect them, to educate them. To give them away to grow into a society where they have their own lives and they can expend their own lives and be situated. But this is not happening, it never happen properly, they don't care about varnasrama dharma. They don't care about social structure. Varnasrama doesn't even matter any more. Because it's already going on out there, you don't even need varnasrama any more. Actually when you get into the essence of it you simply need to love. You have to love each other and care for each other, that's the essence of social structure. As a family and you love your wife your wife loves you, you love your children, you love your relatives, you love your friends, you love your community, you love the whole world. And then you work together as one family, and one family with the goal, because we love God. And we want to serve Him nicely. But in ISKCON that's totally impossible, because everything is screwed up, it's supposed to be the best movement in the world with the "greatest people in the world", but they don't even understand point "A", which is how to have a proper social structure in which everything can be based. And they are deathly afraid of it. And they say "It's a designation" but they are filled with designations. Totally, completely. They say it's material, but they are total materialists. There is no spirituality in that. And then I'm seeing all this and trying to push it subtly, subtly, subtly, subtly. Say it the right way, be edited. Everything I say has to be edited, and checked and made proper and made nice. Ok, I'm finished with that. What I say you are gonna have to accept or not accept that's up to you. I'm not saying anything as a guru. You know this idea being a guru has destroyed everything. You are simply a guru and everybody accept everything what you say, blindly, without thinking about it, without feeling. You have to consider the reality. You accept blindly all these years to be an impersonalist in the so called personalistic movement. You accept blindly to harm thousands and thousands of children and women by calling them less intelligent by calling them lusty, by calling them the source of material existence and so many things. Without even considering that they are the strength of the men. They are the strength of the intelligence of the men. They inspire them to do wonderful things. Behind every great man is the great woman. This are simple basic principles. Marshall mulch(?) said "if it wasn't for women there would be no economic development". So in ISKCON all they care about is an economic development. But they never got it because they rejected the energy which causes the economic development. And they are all looking for love. But they reject rejected the energy which is giving that love. And what have they ultimately rejected, they have ultimately rejected Srimati Radharani, Who is the source of all this. In our movement you are not even allowed to say Radharani, you can't even chant Her name, because if you do, you are sahajiya, or you are this or that or the other thing. Now, I'm not gonna get into this too much, because this is so far away, nobody can even come close to that. But the point is we have to get back to the basics. ·
Why did I start taking vibhuti in the first place?
And in January, you know - you've asked about vibhuti - the reason that I've started taking that stuff because Citesvar said that my brain was burned out by some kind of tantric poison which was given to me, because I was very sick. Citesvar said that I had some time a tantric poisoning at that time. And he took it out and then he said that I needed this stuff in order to repair my brain from the tantric poison. And he said: "you only have to take it for three months". Ok, I took it, I didn't like it at all. Then he said after three months: "you have to take it for two years", and after that he said: "you have to take it for your whole life". And so I took it, I took it, I took it. But although it was a very powerful demoniac psychotropic drug, I didn't stop working, I kept on working, I kept increasing, I kept doing more and more. But in January 17th I decided: "This stuff is disgusting", and I just gave it up. And for three days I couldn't sleep properly, and on the forth day I slept properly and after that everything was fine. But in the mean time my energy increased many times and I started working, but the energy increased not on the physical level, it increased on the etheric level, because what he was doing was suppressing my etheric existence so I couldn't do what I had to do to save the world, because he knew who I was and he knew what I could do. And he new he had to stop me because he's a demon. And so that's exactly what he did and when I found out what was going on I gave it up. I think it's all Krsna's arrangement anyway, but that's another thing. ·
Somebody said I had severe mental and physical breakdown. Was it so?...
And then I had so much power to do what I had to do, and I could see clearly what was going on. So I started doing more and more and more faster and faster to somehow save the movement. But then I realized it wasn't possible, because all the movement really needed was money and some love. But neither of those things could I supply, because Laxmi devi withdrew Her mercy and everything was lost. And can you imagine when everything was lost and all I wanted to do was to somehow help these children and help the women and make the society proper. And I'm thinking who's gonna do it? How this is gonna be done? Because in ISKCON it only works this way and then in the middle of May I'm collapsing more and more, totally upset inside, nobody to talk to, nobody to explain these things to, because I thought if they find out that there is no money they will hate me or whatever, because that all they are really cared about. And then at the bottom of it, you know, it just got too much for my body, it was collapsing more and more. And then on whatever it was June 2nd due to having migraine headaches from so much of anxiety from all of this and my body was totally collapsing, then at the same time I was more and more taking shelter of the Lord and deciding I couldn't live here any more in this world, because it wasn't possible, everything was crazy, I've tried for so many years, to change the movement, they didn't care about me at all, about really what I sad. Only if there are some money then somebody listen and actually they don't really listen, they just simply be nice to you, so that they can get the money. But deep down they don't want to change anything. And then somehow or other Krsna arranged that my body collapsed totally and completely, Gauracandra was there holding my feet doing some reflex massage at that time. And during that time I knew I was gonna die because I had so much pain in my chest I can't imagine, my whole chest was being ripped to pieces by the pain, my heart was totally ripped to pieces with the pain. And I knew I was gonna die. And I knew I had maybe three, four or five minutes left, so I simply was chanting, I don't know what I was chanting but inside I was just taking shelter of the lotus feet of Radha-Madhava. The way I did it was just the way I supposed to do it. Although nobody can understand. I detached myself from every single designation that I've ever had. I detached myself from attachment to money, I detached myself from attachment to all people, I detached myself from attachment to this body, I detached myself from attachment to the mind, from the intelligence, I detached myself from designations, such as being Harikesa Swami, I detached myself from every single material thing there was. At the end there were no more attachments especially when the pain was getting incredible severe, I couldn't remain in the body, I took full shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha-Madhava and Lord Nrisimhadev and I left
And there I was. Gone! And somehow or other, some minutes later I was forced back into the body. I don't know how it happened. I remember when it happened I didn't like it at all. And I woke up later on in a hospital and I was totally bewildered: "What am I doing here again?" I left, I'm gone, I gave up everything, all designations finished, I'm going back to Radha and Krsna! That's the end. And now I'm back. Why? Why? I couldn't figure it out. I didn't fit in the body. You know, people who leave their body like that in actual death
This was not a "near death experience", this was not "out of body experience", this was death. And when people are forced to come back like that for some higher purpose, it was totally impossible for me to live in this body properly. Because it was very very difficult. It wasn't a nervous breakdown. Nervous breakdown is another thing. It wasn't just a physical collapse. This was a total outer devastation of existence due to being completely disgusted with the way things were going on in material world and wanting to give up completely and totally and go back to Godhead and forget about the whole thing
have my views actually chanched that drastically?..
Anyway, after that time I was a different kind of a person. I'm not a different soul, that's insane, you know, I'm the same person. But I'm no longer hiding, you see, that's the difference. I always felt like this. But now I'm not hiding anymore. Now I'm telling the truth. And I'm not going to be under anyone's control. I'm not going to be under the control of the movement, I'm not going to be under the control of a Governing Body Commission, I'm not going to be under the control of an institution, I'm not going to be under the control of anybody, unless those persons, I want to be under the control of due to love. No other reason then that. I'm not gonna be controlled by money, I'm not gonna be controlled by influence, I'm not gonna be controlled by anything, so I'm completely free to say the truth. The raw, honest, hard, very difficult to accept truth, that everything was screwed up totally and completely. And I know why it was screwed up. And sometimes I said some of the reasons why
How was the principle of no illicit sex causing the destruction of thousands of people in ISKCON?..
And the main reason I thought was this rule, which separated men and women. And made them opponents and enemies in the family. It made the husband and wife an enemy. The husband wanted something, the wife wanted something, but they couldn't have it because there is a rule there. One day one want it the other one didn't want. If they have sex they feel so guilty about it because there was this rule. And they felt that guilt ruined their lives! And these poor children were being harmed because of that psychologically and emotionally, you know. You can go on to it very deep. This is just a phone conversation. I can't go on to it so much longer. I mean, you can very much go into a whole psychological emotional analysis of exactly what it means when you are married to somebody you love and attracted to and you can not have a physical relationship - It's not just physical relationship, it's a loving relationship, but physical manifestations of love are natural. Just see how Lord Siva and Goddess Parvati act, or other demigods. These are natural things, this is not unnatural, it's not wrong. And this whole principle destroyed all loving relationships. And from that everywhere all loving relationships destroyed. People taking sannyas when they don't want to. I was forced to take sannyas, I didn't want to do it. I was forced. For the higher principle. Always the higher principle. Everything for the higher principle. But I say it's not a higher principle, it's a lower principle. The highest principle is to develop love of Godhead. And to develop love of Godhead you have to first of all have some love for yourself and others. You ask any devotee, what he thinks about himself. And what does he think? - "Oh, I don't like myself". - Why you don't like yourself?. Because basically.. - they don't want to say it, they never say it, but the real reason is - "I have desires". And what are my desires? "I desire enjoyment". And what is the enjoyment, most desired? "I want pleasure of sex. But I can't have it. Because there is this rule. And anyone who wants that is a demon. Therefore I'm a demon, therefore I hate myself". And what's the solution? - "Go back to Godhead". That's the solution. "Go to the spiritual world". Why? - "Because I'm a demon and I hate myself, I can't live in the material world, I can only live in the spiritual world, therefore get liberation". But you can't get liberation if you don't even love yourself and you don't love Krsna's parts and parcels. And what's the use of having a movement where the only thing you can get is at the end. You know, when you die, then you get liberation. Why? - "I don't know. That's so!" The thing is what's the use of this getting liberation at the end. What's the use of a sectarian movement where during lifetime people are totally screwed up and unattractive. Intelligent people are not attracted to Krsna Consciousness movement. Intelligent people are not attracted to such a sectarian thing with so many rules, millions of rules. You can't do this, you can't do this you can't do that, and nobody follows them. Just like GBC resolutions. GBC may have passed, I don't know, hundreds and thousands of resolutions. Who even knows them, who even cares about them? The GBC members themselves don't even care about them.
Ok. Rules, and rules, and rules, and rules, and rules, and no one cares about the rules. Especially in "no illicit sex" - they do it anyway! But now they fill guilty about it. And that harms them even more. You know? Harms them even more, you get people all over the place doing illicit sex in all different forms. Big big secrets! You know husbands and wives having illicit sex in different ways, sometime even perverted ways, in order to avoid having pregnancies. And people masturbating all the times. I used to get letters from the persons who people used to think were crazy. And used to just say how this is so disgusting everywhere. And what can we do about it. And at the same time you've got, you know, this "no contraceptives" business... ·
I don't know anything about contraceptives, really, except they used to have "birth control pills" in the sixties and they give you cancer. But there are people who know about these things and do it in a very nice way, you know. Jayapataka Swami said he has a disciple who know a pranayam techniques for contraceptive which are very very nice and which are very very Vedic. There are also tantric techniques but I don't know if we are interested in that. There are many many techniques. But you know there is this philosophy that the spirit soul enters the sperm and before gets into the egg. And therefore the contraceptive is sinful, right? Now, ok, many men who are sexually repressed pass semen at night left and right. And does that mean its sinful, at night, that they are killing these living entities who are supposed to take birth? It such a sick thing, you know. And I know Hari Sauri, he is a very
Actually I like Hari Sauri very much - He was telling me that he and his wife they were not following the rule so strictly because they know there is a higher principle there, right? And then he said, he told me wonderful thing about when his child was to take birth. First of all Hari Sauri's child is a very very special girl, she is very very celestial, very very beautiful girl, one of the most beautiful girls I've ever so. And he said when they produced that child they very much wanted to call the child from the heavenly planets. Because that's the way you should do it. When you have a child it should be the most special person in the whole universe should be your child. And then his wife understood later on - they were at Radha-Kunda or something - when the child actually entered into her womb. She felt it , it wasn't just philosophy, she felt the child entering into her womb, later on. I do not think that contraceptives are sinful. It is just something that is part of life. And there has been contraceptives as long as there's been people. Even in the Assirian philosophy, Assirian, you know the Assirian Jews? They have many many many techniques for birth control. It's always been like that. Just people didn't talk about it. There are many many natural techniques, just like when doctor Bruno
, he said there is 50 different birth control patterns. Of Assirian methods. Which are all natural - different kinds of methods. If you do investigation you can figure it all up. That's not my business. What am I know about these things?
Now, unregulated illicit sex. That's another important point. If you just have sex like mad, that is also not good. However, if that were you are at - what can you do? What can repression accomplish? Now, if you do it for a while, then after a while you get bored with it, you know? You'll decide it's not the right thing. And then you'll advance. Because it's all a question of consciousness. Even I tell you something -
the difference between guide and guru
that's what I don't like about this guru business - you say: "do this" and everybody has to follow, right? But they don't feel about it, they don't realize it! And if you say: "do what you like", right? Then they go crazy and do this and that and the other thing. But that actually not what happens. What happens is they do what they like but then they come back to you in a right way. If you let something go and it does not come back to you - it wasn't yours in the first place.
That's right. So, now you can do what you like. What does it mean? - You do what you know! Because what can repression accomplish? Repression accomplishes nothing - everybody acts according to his nature, under all circumstances
the role of sex life
No one can avoid his nature. If it's your nature to enjoy in a certain way - you gone a do it anyway, whether it's hidden or public, or whatever. And when you gradually advance your consciousness, when you gradually develop good qualities, when you are healed within, especially in that etheric body - then the way in which you express your love will be more and more pure. That doesn't mean no sex, it's just means more and more pure. Just like in the higher realms, the higher regions, the heavenly planets and even in Vaikuntha - it's more pure, it's more pure and it is more enjoyable in it's pure state. It's not just lusty desires in the material world, it's pure. Just like gold and iron. You know? It's more and more pure. It doesn't mean that in the spiritual world there is not what is in material world. In the spiritual world there is more then in the material world. It's better then the material world. And in this way you may start of on a low platform but gradually you elevate. Because if all the time you try to chant Hare Krsna and all you are thinking about is having sex, or you've repressed it back in your mind so far that you don't think about it. But you are dissatisfied, you're not happy, you don't know why, you're not feeling spiritual bliss, you're not feeling advancement, you do not understanding everything, and you don't know why! It's because you haven't resolved your basic unsatisfied desires
who to blame for the failers
Ok. You can blame me, it's alright, you can blame me. I accept the blame. I feel that there has been many many wrong things preached in ISKCON. And because I'm a company man, because I preached the "party line" I had to things in a way in which I didn't really want to do. Lets just use an example of one of my disciple who I don't want to mention. He is a very lusty fellow. He goes out and he has sex with different people, here and there and everywhere and thinks that nobody knows about it, but they always find out about it. I never thought badly about them for that because I knew what he was doing. Now, his wife also desires him very much, but she is more dutiful, she doesn't want to break principle. So she called me up once and said: "he wants to go away. What do I do?" And then, because I'm a company man I thought: "damn it!", What I really wanted to tell her is: "Why don't you two you guys go off for a vacation and do it till you are blue in the face and gradually get over this. But I couldn't say that, what I said was: "well, know, you got to follow principles, you know, you got to be strict, and that and the other thing". I hated myself for it. And I've been saying for years like that. But whenever somebody was in trouble or whatever I always forgave him immediately, I never gave them any difficulty. Even if they ran off with somebody else I always let them switch wives or switch husbands, because I knew, it is crazy to put the people together artificially. And just find the right partner I didn't care how you did it behind the scenes I let everything go on. But that's not the right way to do it. It's hypocrisy. If you say: "no illicit sex" right? But behind the scenes you are saying: "do whatever you want" - it's hypocrisy. It's crazy, because people feel sick inside because they are breaking the principle. Therefore what I always wanted to do was change things. All along. I thought from the very beginning: "it was done wrong". In many many many ways. But I couldn't change it. Because I didn't have the power. I knew I had the authority but I didn't have the power, you see.
Of cause I feel sorry for it. It breaks my heart what I had to say to them all the time. I hated it that I had to hide all the time my real feelings
guide or guru
Therefore I don't think anybody should be a disciple. You should use your own brain. You should listen to what people say and if there is something good, you accept it and if there is something not good, then you don't accept it. Don't follow blindly. Just like we had all to follow blindly for the sake of following some guru or following some leader or whatever. Don't just follow. Be independently situated person. Use your own intelligence. And if something is good, then you can follow. And if something is not good, you shouldn't follow.
I don't care of, Madhava Puri! I don't care anymore. I presented so many things so nicely for so many years - nobody cares. Take it or leave it. I don't care. I'm not in ISKCON anymore. I'm not a leader in ISKCON anymore. I'm not a guru anymore. All I am is a guide. And that's really what a guru should have been all along. I know something. I know a lot. And I'm going to help people with it by just telling them about it. If they like it - fine, if they don't like it - fine! And then what they can do? - They can do whatever they like. I don't care. What can I do , I can't be attached to what you think. Now, it's not up to me to present think right all the time. That's not the way I am. I present things from the heart. And I think that is always better. Just like if a husband and wife are together and are always being diplomatic. One says like this, one says like that, one says the other thing, - I've read a book the other day, where it is said that in the beginning, when there is a courtship relationships - there is always cheating going on. Like the woman present herself like this, the man present himself like that. But if you want to have a long term lasting relationships with somebody - you should just be yourself, whatever you are. Because if you have a partner who loves you as yourself, whatever it is then you've got a real partner. But if you got somebody who loves you for what you think they are or what they are presenting themselves to be in order to attract you
Because that what I thought these two problems here with guru. Number one: people thought of me in a certain way. They thought of me as this big renounced sannyasy bla bla bla. First of all, I was that to a certain extend, but I wasn't that inside. I never wanted to get married. I'm not that kind of a person. I'm a very loving person. You know I'm not that kind of a person. I like personal relationships. And they always thought of me as this hard hard and this and that. I'm not at all hard, I'm very soft. I gave everything to everybody. Whatever anybody wanted - I gave them, I just satisfied their desires all along. I love children, you know. I'm not at all what they made me out to be. But, you know, I had to play a role, because that's what they wanted. But that's wasn't a real relationship, because they always told
They told me after I've collapsed: "you've got to change". Kamalasundari said: "Astrology - have to change", Hari Sauri said: "Astrology - I have to change". Everybody was pushing me: "You've got to change, you've got to change, you've got to change, in order that you'll don't break down again". So I changed! And then they said: "Hey, that's crazy!" And I said: "Make up your mind people. If you want me to live - I've got to change, so I changed". You say: "better you died, because if you've died, then you wouldn't get changed and we wouldn't be upset, because we've lost our conception of you". Ok. So they want me to live so I've changed then they said that: "better if you should have died". Ok. Look. I tell you what: "You guys have fun in your ISKCON in your buildings doing whatever you want, I'll be somewhere else doing what I want. And I'll be me. And if you want to love me as me - well, that's fine! Not me as your conception. If you disciples are out there just waiting for me to become what you want, if you are trying to seduce me, right? Lets say, all the disciples are out there saying: "we are just waiting for you to come back to ISKCON. We are just waiting for you, we haven't given you up, just waiting for you. We haven't given you any money all this time, because we are just waiting for you when you do what we want and you come back to ISKCON and you are the big big guru again and the big big sannyasy, then we'll give you money again and everything will be alright. You won't have to work so hard, you won't have to worry about anything". I say: "Forget it. You want to love me, you love me as I am. And "as I am" means somebody who says things which you may not like. Because the truth hurts. If you want to advance, you got to work. You have to work hard. Self-discipline, you have to work on yourselves, you have to advance your own intelligence. You can't be a lobotomized zombie following some sect. A lobotomized zombie who also has his genitals cut off and has no heart.
That's fine. And also a guru has to present himself in a certain way. Right? He has to smile at his women disciples so that they become attracted to him so they go out and do things for him. I'm not criticizing anybody, I'm just making statements. Just because I say something, doesn't mean it applies to everybody at all times and all places. I'm just talking how I feel. I'm talking from the heart. And I think it is about time that somebody did that. Somebody talks from the heart, somebody tell the truth, somebody tells what's actually going on, somebody makes you change. The emperor has no clothes! It's time to change! We have to change fast! The world is coming to a very crushing conclusion. Fast! We have to do something. If you really think you are something special, if you really think you've got the way, you've got the answer, well do something about it and help people, and stop worrying about yourself. Because you can't even satisfy your own desires. Get yourself situated first, then you can help others. Save yourself first. Isn't that the Vedic aphorism? You can't save yourself if you are totally dependent on some institution which is controlling you through money
what do I consider the best way to help another person?.
The best way to help another person is to wake him up - what's actually going on and get him out of the situation so he can actually be free enough to think for himself and understand what's actually right and do it.
You don't have to. We are taping it all here. You think I'm gone a trust that: you are gone take everything and present it exactly as I'm saying? Yeah, I know, but usually what happens is I say something and then they say: "Oh, God! This is so radical! Oh, God! This is so extreme! Oh, God! This is so heavy! Oh, God! This is not properly presented, we need communications departments. We need editors. We need brahmanas to see if this is right. We have to have a meeting and see what we think and then we'll pass a resolution to see what we can do. And maybe something will happen. Just wait". - You can forget it. What I'm saying is what's needed. It's the medicine. Medicine hurts sometimes. It tastes bad sometimes. That doesn't mean you don't take it. When there is an operation needed, when the patient is in critical condition, he's got a cancer in his heart and brain - they have to go in with a knife, chap the skull, open the chest, get the knife and rip it out. They don't have PR agents there making sure that rip it out in a very nice way. They do what has to be done properly, because the doctor knows exactly what is needed. And the expert doctors know exactly what to do and although others may not understand it - the doctor knows what to do. And when the operation is over and the patient actually wakes up from the operation - the patient will say: "How did it go doctor?" the doctor will say: "it's fine, just get healthy and enjoy life and gradually advance just to where you want to be".
My plans? My plans are to save the world somehow or another. But not through any institution. I'm creating a company as soon as possible called "Earth's Future". Because that's the future. Earth's Future. We're all in it together. It's not just "Hare Krsnas". It's not just Catholics. It's not just Protestants. It's not just Jews, it's not just Hindus. It's everybody. We are in it together. The Earth is in it together. All of us are in it together. It's not that you can just transform a couple of people's consciousness. The Earth will be finished unless the consciousness is transformed of all the people. Or at least the most intelligent people of the world. If the most intelligent people of the world, hardly any of whom are in ISKCON, got together and actually did something to save this world - it would change. So what I want to do is to create a center for actual healing. What I want to do is actually is create a center for therapy and training to actually heal people on a very deep level so that they can get over the fear - everybody scared to death of what's gonna happen, and to get over the fear of that and to actually become strong and to understand what to do in a positive way to actually save the world. And actually ultimately to bring people to the platform of love of God, which is the only solution. But that's a long long way of way. We have to first of all love each other. Now this war in Yugoslavia. I have just heard on the radio when I was coming. Ok, fine. They gonna continue fighting with each other until they elevate their consciousness. The UN - they can do this and that, the NATO can do this and that. They will never stop. There will always be one war after another getting worse and worse and worse. And how you gonna stop all the natural things that are happening too? And the economic chaos? Hedge funds collapsed. Completely. All the bank in hysteria. All the investments are in hysteria. Why? Because the things are going down and no one knows what to do. But actually I know what to do, and I'm gonna do it. And anyone who wants to be part of it they can do that. But they must be independently situated. I'm not gonna support them. I may hire somebody when the company is established. It has to be legally set up. I need help to do that. I need a lot of help right now. Anybody wants to be part of this in the very beginning, who has the good brain and the understanding and intelligence to understand what I'm doing, and why I'm doing it, and what's the purpose behind it, may be they can even ask, whoever they have to ask to figure out how to do it and why I'm doing it, that's fine, but it has to be done fast, there is no time to wait.
What do you trying? To get my address by different tricks? Yes. You send everything... Anybody who wants to send anything to me they can send it to Guru-Sakti here in Dole. I'm not afraid to give it out my address, I just don't want weird those coming here. And when I set up the company and everything then everything will be very public and all devotees who want come and get therapy and training and understand what was wrong and do things in a right way. We are opening the doors for them we'll even give them a very good price. And we'll open the door for all intelligent people all over the world who want to get the strength to handle the situation so that we can together make a solution to save the world. We are in it together.
I think that superior spiritual consciousness is the solution, and it is God consciousness. If you want to call God Krsna - that's fine, if you want to call Him Allah - that's fine, if you want to call Him Jehovah - that's fine, it's just a name. Krsna is God. If He is really God, it doesn't matter which name you use. But the principles are what counts. The principles are what counts. The things behind God consciousness are what counts. Not the rules, the specific dogma of each and every religion is not what's important. "Don't do this , do this, don't do this. Don't have children, unless you ask your guru first". Rules are what ruins everything. Because people just don't even follow them and gradually they loose interest. There has to be elevation of consciousness. When your consciousness is elevated, automatically you do everything beautifully. And you get guidance from elevated spiritual people.
Ok ...Who? Kanka? You know she was the one who had me join the movement. She is a wonderful girl. Thank you very much, that's great! Yeah, she was totally screwed up by Kirtanananda. She was totally screwed up by Kirtanananda. She was also jolly in the beginning, but she got ruined, like many many many thousands of devotees got ruined. Nice people, they were nice people, they were sincere, they were honest, they were seriously looking for something higher, and instead they got cut in a web of something bizarre which destroyed their lives.
Or, is it that you want to go. It is not a problem for me, I can talk intensely for ten hours, I have no problem. It's just that people can't handle me. People can handle me. Ah? I don't know if they are supposed to handle me or not. It's their choice. If you want to come in contact with fire you better be ready for the flame
That's their problem, I'm not in charge of anything that taking place anywhere - in Saint-Petersburg, I'm not telling Sannyas what to do, what not to do. Even though we work together. Even right now I'm together with Sannyas. But I don't tell, ever, that "you should do this with the BBT, you should do that with the BBT". I never say that, I never told Kamalamala: "You should do this, you do that". All I tell them is that you should make sure the devotees are self-sufficient economically, they are not exploited, they are taken care of, they're being given a facility to make their lives stable. I'm not a leader of any movement
Here, you can talk to Sannyas, he is right here
I'm not gonna continue. I got to eat, you know, I haven't eaten for so long. Sannyas is not a demon, he's a great person. Actually in the beginning I said Sannyas should be in charge completely of the entire country of Russia, but they couldn't handle it because he was also heavy. Of cause at that time he was not so qualified personally, but he is gradually developing more and more
A? Very good heart, super good heart. Armenians especially have a super good heart. And they are also very mystical people, you know. They understand things on a higher level then other people. They are very special people but people don't understand it. They think
because they don't have money, right, people think they are low class. But actually they have a heart, they have culture, they have intelligence, they have knowledge and they have a real good understanding of what's going on. But people don't respect them, because they don't have money, because all people care about in this world is money.
You know, I have to pay for this phone call. Yeah, because from Germany to France - I have to pay, yeah. If you are really sorry you would send me a check to pay for the phone call (laughing). After all I worked, I've built up the BBT the way it is today. And can you imagine, they don't even give me nothing? Yeah, can you imagine, anybody in a material word who worked for 22 years to make something huge and at the end when he retires, right, they wouldn't even give him any money, anything, nothing, not even a gold watch. And what they do is they try to destroy him in different ways. It's far out. You people are sick!
Yeah. Thank you. And if you want to help me, the doors are wide open but not in any other way except if you accept me. I mean as I am, for what I say
That's good that you don't agree a hundred percent. I think it's good you don't agree a hundred percent. You should think about it and agree with what you want to agree with. I can work with people who don't agree with me, but the basic point is we have to have the same mission and we have to have the same understanding. And people should understand that I can give good guidance and if they accept my guidance we can do things in a very very powerful way
That's good. That's great. Is that that boy in Malme? Yes, he's a very nice boy. Very good energy about him. Very nice qualities. Yeah, he's a very good boy. ·
that I present things very heavily
I mean I don't like being heavy, Madhava Puri, you know that? I like being soft, I like being kind, I like being loving, but it doesn't work. Nobody cares. If you are soft and kind and loving they walk over your head because they are not soft and loving. If you are dealing with people who are soft and loving and kind - you can be soft and loving and kind. If you are dealing with people who are cold and heartless and only interested in money and power, you know, when you are dealing with criminals you can't be a saint. So therefore I had to say these things in this way, because it is the only way they understand. So please forgive me, you know, just personally between me and you, just forgive me. It's not that I want to be like this, I can't stand that. I'm a very soft and kind and loving person inside, you know. And finally at one point I want to be like that again
And sometimes when you go through these different moods, you know, then they think you are crazy, you are so extreme they say. Because at one point you are heavy like anything and at the other point you are a nice, kind, loving guy - they think you are crazy. They think the only way a person can be like that is to be schizophrenic. But they don't understand. Just like a woman. A woman can be so hard so cruel and so heavy and super loving and super kind and super tricky and super wonderful and super everything as she likes, as she works through the heart, not from the mind. And I also do like that. Ok? Hari Bol!
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