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EDITORIAL September 11, 2000 VNN6241 Related VNN Stories Prabhupada Vs. Jagadish BY RAGHUNATHA ANUDASA EDITORIAL, Sep 11 (VNN) — The discussion (Abridged) Devotees and leaders have complained bitterly over the guru-kulis blame of Prabhupada for the schools abuses. Yet, I wonder how many will take just 10 minutes to read an effective rebuttal. This is not so much an indictment of Jagadish as it is a word of caution to those who are so cavalier to blame Prabhupada in place of others like Jagadish. Here, you can judge for yourself. Prabhupada questions Jagadish repeatedly about waking the kids up so early, about the lack of meals, about the length of classes, about the lack of brakes, about the necessity of mid day baths (3 a day), about staying in Vrindavan in summer, about "beating" (contested it 10 times or more), about forcing kids to sit and chant for so long and about the age of the kids. For the rest of the conversation (the majority), Prabhupada stresses the importance of accommodation-Varna Ashram Dharma. This discussion summarizes what Prabhupada repeatedly says throughout his letters on the same topics. You will see that Jagadish is the one who pushes for all of the above--repeatedly if not slyly. You will see that it is Jagadish and the teachers prompting and misleading information that leaves Prabhupada agreeing to THEIR programs. Again the point remains, who is leading whom? You decide. I comment throughout so you can see how a guru-kuli who was actually there in Vrindavan during this time would view this conversation. I would love to hear Nirmala Chandra's take on this even though he was not there during Prabhupada's days. I doubt he will ever face such facts about his dad though so fiercely leading the attack on Prabhupada. All I ask is that Nirmal at least consider these points before condemning me publicly for not joining him in blaming Prabhupada. The following is just a small excerpt of the conversation. I will send the entire piece in the next posting for those who are interested. I have lost about 40 responses so mind if I failed to resond. I am now edging up to about 200 responses to my last post. I hope you find this as helpful. Raghunatha Anudasa (John Michael) Excerpt: Jagadisa: We have one question about one of the boys. His name is (name withheld), and he's a... He's more or less a bad boy. He's had a bad background. His mother's a devotee and she's a nice devotee, but he's very... He terrorizes the other boys. (EdNote: I find this interesting. Start counting how many accusations they hurl at jagaman. 1)bad boy 2) bad back ground 3) mother nice but he; 4) terrorizes other boys. We all fought, I don't think you will get any of us to say jagaman terrorized us. Jagadish said this out of desperation to make a case against Jagaman. They had so little so called him a terrorist. I say it was a gross exaggeration. Other gkulis are likely to agree. I also resent how they regularly used private, personal, family matters against us. They used it even to Prabhupada. It was horrible. The leader of the pack here, Jagadish.) Prabhupada: Accha? (EdNote: So Prabhupada takes note.) Jagadisa: He misleads them. He lies. (EdNote: Here are the 5th and 6th accusations. Again, it is about how terrible he treats the rest of us other kulis. If you really want to embarrass jagadish or any of these teachers, just ask them today what Jagaman was doing. It is so trivial yet to them, it was terrorization. That was their view, not Prabhupada's.) Prabhupada: How old he is? (EdNote: I love this question because Prabhupada is assuming he must be some older teenager.) Jagadisa: He's thirteen. (EdNote: Didn't Jagadish feel even a little uncomfortable making such a big deal out of a kid who was 12 years old hardly but a few months before.) Prabhupada: So he cannot be... He must go back. We cannot spoil other children. (EdNote: So you see Prabhupada's concern here, the rest of us. Start counting how many times Prabhupada tells them to send Jagaman away. Here's the 1st.) Rupa-vilasa: They are being spoiled by him. Jagadisa: I was thinking, to make an example of him, either we should beat him or send him back. (EdNote: Now start counting how many times Jagadish resist Prabhupada's recommendation to send Jagaman away and instead, "make an example of him." Here is the 1st time Jagadish pushes for beating. It was not Prabhupada.) Prabhupada: Best thing will be send him back. He's incorrigible. (EdNote: 2nd time Prabhupada tells them.) Yasodanandana: Personally I had that boy with me for two months when I went to South India, preaching, and I thought it would be an asset to have a young boy, but he was so misbehaved that it was too much problem. And the same things that he was doing, in the beginning with me, telling lies and misbehaving, he is still doing now and he does not correct himself never. He has no effort to better his behavior or his conduct. He does not chant his rounds. He rarely comes to the kirtana, or else when he comes to the kirtana, he does not chant. He simply plays and makes fun. And it's very... He has a very bad influence on the other boys. (EdNote: Jagadish above made 7 accusations against Jagaman. Here Yasodhanandana adds 13 more charges for a total of 20 accusations against him. 1) so misbehaved; 2) too much problem; 3) doing the same here; 4) telling lies; 5) misbehaving; 6) does not correct himself-never; 7) no effort; 8) not chant rounds; 9) rarely comes to kirtana; 10) does not chant; 11) plays; 12) makes fun; and. THE WORSE ACCUSATION OF ALL: 13) bad influence. Talk about trumped up charges. Here's their version of a "bad" kid. This must make Yasodhanandana cringe to see how harsh he was towards us. I maybe prejudiced against Yasoda for having been brutally beaten by him.) Prabhupada: No, then he should be sent back. Or he can be sent to Bombay to work ordinarily. Or Hyderabad farm. Like that. Let him work on the ground. (EdNote: They now have made 20 accusations against Jagaman and still Prabhupada repeats for the 3rd, 4th and 5th time to send him away: 3) send back; 4) sent to Bombay; 5) Or Hyderabad. The "No" may have been as well, but I didn't count it.) Yasodanandana: He speaks Bengali. That boy was in Bengal before and he picked up Bengali. (EdNote: Interesting that Yasodanandana picks up on Prabhupada's recommendation and starts tying to work with it. I think Jagadish would have been a lot better off had he shared in the same mood-simply trying to understand what Prabhupada wants and doing just that.) Prabhupada: So he can go. (EdNote: 6th time Prabhupada says, "he can go.") Pradyumna: He's very intelligent, but he's just had a bad... (EdNote: Here is the 21st accusation against Jagaman.) Prabhupada: So he was in Mayapura? Yasodanandana: Yes, he was in Mayapura before. He knows Bengali. He can speak Bengali. (EdNote: Yasoda is embracing Prabhupada's idea.) Prabhupada: So he can go with the Mayapura preaching party as well. (EdNote: Here is the 7th time Prabhupada recommends sending him away. This time on a preaching party. Prabhupada has now thought of 4 different ways Jagaman could be accommodated: Hydrabad, Mayapur, Bombay and the preaching party. This was Prabhupada's response after 21 accusations by 3 different leading men. Are we seeing a trend develop here between Prabhupada and the others?) Yasodanandana: We could send him with Bhavananda Maharaja. (EdNote: Yasoda is trying to work with Prabhupada's idea.) Prabhupada: Yes, that will be nice. He knows Bengali. Let him go to Bengal and keep him under Bhavananda. (EdNote: Prabhupada now confirms it and then restates it. 8) will be nice; 9) Let him go.) Jagadisa: I think that he'll be a problem wherever he goes. (EdNote: So who is the one to break the momentum here? Well, it was not Prabhupada, nor Yasodhanandana or Pradumna. It was Jagadish. Yes, Jagadish's job description is to let Prabhupada know of these other considerations, but only if Jagadish could have been so pressing about the abusive teachers.) Prabhupada: No, Bhavananda will correct his problem. (EdNote: Prabhupada dismisses Jagadish's rebuttal. You may count this if you like. I won't.) Jagadisa: I think Bhavananda won't want to take him because he knows he's a problem. (EdNote: Here is the 3rd time Jagadish rebuts Prabhupada's recommendation.) Rupa-vilasa: Bhavananda told me he did not want to see that boy again. (EdNote: This is the 4th rebuttal that Prabhupada hears.) Prabhupada: Eh? Rupa-vilasa: Bhavananda told me he did not want to see that boy again. (EdNote: 5th rebuttal.) Pradyumna: In Mayapura he had some girl... (Ednote: 6th rebuttal and 22nd accusation against Jagaman.) Jagadisa: In my opinion, the best thing is to make an example and beat him. (EdNote: The is now the 7th rebuttal to Prabhupada and the 2nd and 3rd time Jagadish recommends, "to make an example" and "beat him. Most of all, Jagadish states for the record that it is his "opinion." Not Prabhupada's. It is interesting that Prabhupada was making them go through this many hoops because corporal punishment had not yet really developed a strong condemnation as yet throughout the world; still, Prabhupada speaks against it very, very strongly saying in discussion that teachers that do beat should be hanged. It's interesting to note how he deals with it here.) Prabhupada: Yes, send him to farm, work in the field. If he does not work, beat him. Murkhasya laktausadhih. (?)(Hindi conversation) (EdNote: Prabhupada gives 2 to 3 more recommendations to send: 10) Yes; 11) send him to farm, 12) work in field. You may only count that as one making this 10 times Prabhupada said to send. So now after 7 rebuttals, 22 accusations against Jagaman, by 4 leading men and only after qualifying it with "If he does not work" does Prabhupada finally say the big word: "beat.") Yasodanandana: He was just in Hyderabad for that ceremony there, and he caused such disruption in the whole temple that I don't think they'd want him there. (EdNote: Well, this of course is not strong enough so Prabhupada now gets his 8th rebuttal and Jagamans 23rd accusation.) Jagadisa: The thing is, if we beat him here and keep him here, then all the boys will straighten up because they will see that if they go bad, then this will be their punishment. (EdNote: Not good enough for Jagadish. He obviously does not like Prabhupada's idea of sending Jagaman away. HE, Jagadish wants to beat Jagaman here and now. Jagadish is pushing the very OPPOSITE OF WHAT PRABHUPADA WANTS and so we find the 9th rebuttal to Prabhupada and the 4th time Jagadish recommends to "beat him." Again, I ask, who is leading whom here? Jagadish summarizes his idea-to terrorize the kids so "they will seeÉtheir punishment." Who was the terrorist here? Jagaman or Jagadish? Who was setting the policy here? Prabhupada or Jagadish? The fact that Jagadish pressed for it shows that it was fair of Prabhupada to assume there was not corporal punishment.) Prabhupada: As you think, you can do. But I wanted to engage in farm work, in digging. (EdNote: And now the punch line: "As you think, you can do, but I want..." This is either the 11 or 14th time Prabhupada says to do something other then beat. I can go on, but the primary point is made. Much much of what we see even in Prabhupada's discussions is the ideas and agenda's of others. In the remaining part of this discussion, Prabhupada repeatedly pushes the importance of accommodation vs. "force." When asked how to stop a boy from lying, Prabhupada recommends association with elders and his father. Prabhupada enthusiastically offers the guesthouse for as many students as it can hold. He recommends for the kids to go to South India for the cool climate there during the scorching N. India summers. Of course, the teachers turned this into a military exercise of travel and "preaching." As for Jagaman, he was not hit again much like the rest of us for the first time in years. Jagaman did go off to Hydrabad and had one of the best times of his life. The teachers under Jagadishh's authority found a great many ways to torture us without directly beatings. This is all mentioned in brief in my last piece called: Nirmal Stole My Day In Court. The remainder of this conversation follows.) I will send the complete transcript in the next post. It will come in 4 parts. About the Author  Other Stories by this AuthorRelated VNN Stories Comment on this storyContact VNN about this storySend this story to a friend
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