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EDITORIAL March 4, 2000 VNN5617 Related VNN Stories The Actual Role Of Guru BY NISCALA DD EDITORIAL, Mar 4 (VNN) — The Actual Role of Guru- a Response to IRM Dear IRM, Thank you for your reply (VNN Story 5573) . I am surprised you think me quick to jump to the conclusion that you were cheating... I waited 6 months for a reply and I sent the letter 4 times, the last time here, still nothing. According to your own claim, being off-line is a "pathetic excuse", but still you use it! Anyway, it is an excuse, none-the-less, so we'll put that behind us. Main thing is you replied, so thank you. "If she were to go back and carefully re-read the paper 'GBC Heresies' she will see that we do not use these quotes as direct evidence for the ritvik position."So the quotes you give in "GBC Heresy" are not direct evidence for ritvik position. Jaya! We are in agreement there. And we all know physical presence is not required for instruction- we can still reach Rupa Goswami via his books and so many other acaryas.
But you have not yet answered my point- that how does it give evidence- even indirect- that the book-form of the guru, the vani, can perform the main function of the diksa guru, which is to progressively clear all of the doubts of the disciple by answering his questions and doubts, and in this way, help him apply the teachings to his life? Arjuna was well-versed in the vedic literature, still he became confused about his duty, same with Pariksit, same with Sanatan- who had done much study of vedic literature. So when one questions the guru, one becomes enlightened and free from doubt and this is what the guru-disciple thing is all about. We have taken it to mean all-glory-honour-and-daksina, but it is simply this: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Enquire..." Enquire means to ask questions and it states further that the guru "will reveal the truth", the correct understanding. That is why taking on a diksa guru is essential and why it is always done with his vapuh present; later when one's doubts are cleared there is initiation, the formalizing of the relationship. It can be done via ritvik or in person, that is a detail. "...in this way these quotes simply eliminate one of the most common objections to the ritvik position. So often the GBC claim that the guru must be physically present in order to act, yet these quotes prove the opposite."This is your verbal sleight-of-hand. You have stealthily substituted a general word "act", to replace a specific one "initiate". How convenient to do away with specifics to support your argument! Wonderful how the English language can be used thus, is it not? No one is claiming that the spiritual master needs to be present in order to "act" in the matter of giving instructions. I contest that he needs to be present in order to "act" in the matter of initiating, for it is not just conducting a ceremony- which can be done by a priest- but it means taking responsibility for guiding the disciple out of illusion, to "reveal the truth" by answering his every enquiry. One who does so is guru, no matter what the ritviks may claim; one who does not, is not guru, no matter what the GBC's claim. Simple. "Proof of the actual ritvik system is in legal documents such as the July 9th directive and Srila Prabhupada's Final Will."....legal documents such as the July 9th directive ...? Can a lawyer confirm this? Anyway, we'll forgive you on that one, the Will is such a "legal document" so you are half-right at least. To my memory (correct me if I'm wrong) the relevant part of the Will, states that everything should be kept going as it is. Hardly a "proof of the actual ritvik system" What exactly do you mean by "actual"? We are obviously expected to take it to mean your version of the ritvik-system, i.e. post-samadhi ritvik, which Prabhupada never set up, and which is a vast departure from the pre-samadhi ritvik which he did. Simply because of the fact that the essential feature of the guru/disciple relationship is enquiry/response, in regard to advancing in the understanding of the transcendental science and the practical application of it to the life of the disciple. "Of course the issue of whether or not Srila Prabhupada authorised his >>disciples to be Diksa Gurus has been covered extensively in 'The Final >>Order' and our other many papers. In summary Srila Prabhupada states: a) 'Best Not To Accept Disciples" - (CC:7:130) - when explaining the instruction from Lord Chaitanya to 'become guru'"OK, why "best not to..."? Let us apply the rest of Prabhupada's teachings to the answer, using one of your favourite quotes.. Quote 3: "Sometimes a spiritual master is not properly authorized to initiate, ...and gets carried away by a large number of followers" There are many warnings against this in sastra- the dangers of accepting a large number of disciples- unless we are on the par of Srila Prabhupada we should not imitate him and do so and expect to be unaffected by the wealth and prestige offered, as confirmed in sastra and by the facts of.our history. What is the proper authorization? "He who follows can..." "I am a bonafide teacher as long as I follow..."(letter, 29th Oct, 1967) How is it following his direction to partake of the worship of thousands of disciples? We can follow in his footsteps, according to our capacity, and do as he did- which is what he told us to do, but we cannot imitate: this is sastric advice in regard to the following of the great acaryas. Sastric warnings in this connection: "Some unnecessary creepers that grow with the bhakti creeper...mundane adoration, mundane profiteering and mundane importance. All these are unwanted creepers" (Cc. 19.159) Adoration, profiteering and importance are all associated with the present role of gurus in our society. The only role should be to free the disciples from illusion, which is a painstaking procedure. It took Krsna 18 chapters and He is God. Being a guru is a service, and a very difficult one. If it was enough to read books, then there would be no need for guru. But sastra says, guru is essential. "b) Virtually all of the instructions to become guru are not time -dependent as they would need to be if they referred to diksa guru - that is they do not specifically speak of becoming guru after Srila Prabhupada's departure. etc. etc."If they do not speak specifically of a time frame, and they are based in sastra, then the instruction is eternal. The only mention of a time frame according to my knowledge, is Prabhupada's specification that diksa cannot be done while one's guru is still present (vapuh). He said it is "not the etiquette". Still, even while he was with us, he allowed one sannyasi to initiate his own disciples, so it was obviously not very important etiquette... >>We are glad that you agree that if one does not reply with logic and >>sastra then it is a sign of cheating. As you will see from the latest exchange between Kundali and the IRM, Kundali has made it clear he cannot be bothered to reply to our points, and instead simply explains why he does not need to reply. We hope you are honest enough to apply your standards of cheating to 'Kundali', and either demand he replies to our specific points, or reject him as a cheater.. It is said that one uses a thorn to remove a thorn, but what does one do if there is no thorn to remove? Where there is no logic and sastra in an argument, there is no need to apply logic and sastra as a reply. In fact, there is no need to reply at all, because such an argument is self-deflating. I am surprised you place such value on logic and sastra, as I have not found any of it in your articles to Kundali, nor in your books, just absurd claims. Your basic claim that pre-samadhi ritvik equals post-samadhi ritvik is absurd, because it permits not the real function of an initiating guru- the clearing away of misgivings from the heart, by answering all enquiries. Now Srila Prabhupada is always with us in vani form, but does that mean we can question his books and a disembodied voice will echo from within? Now you may say, that the answer is there somewhere, you just have to find it, but then why have a guru? Why have a teacher, just study books, you will get your doctorate no worries, why go to a doctor, read books on medicine... My dear scholars, vani and vapuh may have certain aspects in common, but they are not identical in all respects, or else we would have no trouble being initiated by Rupa Goswami. Srila Prabhupada may be in his books but he has not become them. Acintya-bheda-bheda-tattva means that the personality and the paraphernalia of the Supreme Lord and his pure devotees are simultaneously one and different. Only stressing the one-ness is known as Mayavada. Srila Prabhupada is not different from his picture as well, but does that mean he is a picture? Or a fibre-glass murti? I am open for discussing your realizations on this but it has to be based on sastra. You have not answered my points so far...but have referred me to your books. But there as well I can find no answers... "In trying to understand Srila Prabhupada's teachings we are instructed to not 'jump over' to the previous acaryas. Instead one must understand Srila Prabhupada's instructions from Srila Prabhupada himself."And Srila Prabhupada has instructed us in many places to study the books of the great acaryas, such as in the introduction to Srimad Bhagavatam. Should we ignore those instructions? Therefore, "Jumping over" means only to ignore one's own guru's instructions in favour of the previous acarya's. But we are primarily giving quotes and directions from Srila Prabhupada, so where is such an attitude of jumping over? How can we ignore such literature and still follow the above mentioned instructions of Srila Prabhupada? Gurus do and can fall as described in the books of these acaryas. They are not necessarily perfect in every respect,as given in the quote below, nor are these "falls" necessarily disqualifications. What is the "only" necessary qualification was so often repeated by Srila Prabhupada- here is one of many quotes: "So far as my qualifications are concerned, I am just trying to carry out the order of my guru" (letter, 12th Nov, 1971). "I am a bonafide teacher as long as I follow the instructions of my spiritual master. That is the only qualification for becoming a teacher" (letter, 29th Oct.,1967) "No, I am not perfect. None of us claim to be perfect; we have so many faults. But because we don't speak anything beyond Krsna's teachings, our teaching is therefore perfect" (Consciousness: the missing link, pages 13-14) To my sense of judgement Srila Prabhupada is perfect in all respects, perfect in every vaisnava quality one could consider, despite this statement. But to be so perfect is not necessary in order to be bonafide, or else it would nullify this statement. It is possible to have an otherwise-imperfect teacher who is performing the function of guru, but he should be careful not to imitate, considering himself unaffected by wealth, prestige and followers. Such over-eagerness to be seen as in a position way over their heads, is the downfall of the guruship in Iskcon. Such is a symptom of yet another anartha: "Some unnecessary creepers that grow with the bhakti creeper...diplomacy..." So my conclusion is: it is not the system of initiation that is imperfect, as it is described in sastra, it is our present application of it. I invite you to prove me wrong by answering each one of these points as I have replied to each one of yours, and if you can possibly do it within a shorter time span, despite your heavy correspondence, I would much appreciate it. ys, Niscala dd. PS: I also get hundreds of letters a month being on the cow conference, but I replied to you the day I saw your letter was posted. Because I see it vital to being a devotee, learning to establish what is the truth. This is so essential, that it is described in sastra as the highest welfare work- learning to distinguish reality from illusion for the benefit of all. Therefore I say, a prompt response would be highly appreciated. Related VNN Stories  Comment on this storyContact VNN about this storySend this story to a friend
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